debate with the new guest Pandora

[مهندس احمد امام]

I will use the King James Version in all my evidence to come because it is the most common


(KJV)(John)(Jn-1-1)(In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.)
(KJV)(John)(Jn-1-2)(The same was in the beginning with God.)
(KJV)(John)(Jn-1-3)(All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.)

؟A - the phrase is understandable if the word with God, how to be God
Compensation in the status word phrase the place of God (as long as the word is God) we get the following text
In the beginning was God, and God was with God, and God was God!! .. No comment.


B - this sentence attributed to John, and was not of the sayings of Jesus Christ.

C - Where is the Holy Spirit? This is by belief and faith in god law equally with them and has the same capability.

D - if intended John this number that tells us that (Jesus and God are one equal), what we understand from the words of Jesus Christ in the same gospel: (KJV) (John) (Jn-20-17) (Jesus saith unto her,Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.)

and

(KJV)(John)(Jn-8-40)(But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.)


E - where John came from this philosophical opinion is incomprehensible?? .. Answer from Jewish philosopher credited with this saying he lived in the first century AD in Alexandria (called Alexandrian Filho), and told him of his "the Platonic philosophy that God's first creation has done is to create wisdom (logos), and wisdom that created the universe.

Well Durant wrote in The Story of Civilization Encyclopedia for Filho Alexandrian:


Philo was a philosopher more than a cleric, was Sophia. God was in the writings of Philo is the fundamental object in the world, which is embodied object, eternal Sarmady.
The Philo swinging between philosophy and theology, between abstraction and embodiment, and that he was thinking in the divine mind once like someone at the hour of hours Nchoth poetic call first thing born of God "...... He says he by word God revealed himself to man.
It was "the doctrine of the divine mind" says Philo of views with the greatest impact in the history of human thought. To view this clear precedents in philosophy Hrkulaitts and Plato and the Stoics; more likely that he was known Jewish literature that originated in the near times of his day, and that made the wisdom of God as the Creator of the universe distinguishing specific individual.
Philo was a contemporary of Christ looms and he has never heard of him, but he has contributed to are not aware of it in the formation of Christian theology.
Philo has tried to reconcile the Jewish and Hellenistic philosophy; Either of the Jewish point of view has failed in his quest From the historical point of view has returned, and was the result of farming is the first chapter of the Gospel of John. The Story of Civilization -> Caesar and Christ -> Empire -> vigilance Hellenistic -> Philo ... Page Number: 3809




Follow after comment respected Guest ...

[pandora]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


It is not possible to replace the word using the word "God" Because to say 'In the beginning was the God and the God was with God and God was God", this makes no sense. When you go to verse 14 where it says the word became flesh, it cannot mean that God became flesh, because John 1:1 makes no sense.

Jesus was made flesh to dwell among us.

[pandora]

Hope the font is easier to read...

We have no reason to believe that John is not a reliable Gospel. The four synoptic Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were widely accepted as scripture at the time of Mohammed pbuh.

The Holy Spirit is where it has always been ... With God and in Christ.

Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus demand worship, but this does not mean he does not accept his divinity. We are shown many examples in the Bible that Jesus by his actions took on attributes that only would be attributed to God, such as the forgiving of sins.

According to Jesus, all people must honor him just as we honor the Father:
John 5:21-23—“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”
Since one of the ways we honor the Father is by worshiping him, it should come as no surprise that Jesus’ followers worshiped him on numerous occasions. The Gospel tells us that Jesus was worshiped throughout his life: shortly after his birth (Matthew 2:11), during his ministry (Matthew 14:33, John 9:38), after his resurrection (Matthew 28:17), and after his ascension to heaven (Luke 24:52). Jesus’ disciple Thomas even addressed him as “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28).

[مهندس احمد امام]

Reply to your evidence will be in the night after returning from work. Peace for you.

[مهندس احمد امام]

Welcome again

We talked earlier in my presentation about that Christ said to his disciples: Father and your Father, my God and your God ... Guest Esquire's reply was:

Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus demand worship, but this does not mean he does not accept his divinity. We are shown many examples in the Bible that Jesus by his actions took on attributes that only would be attributed to God, such as

the forgiving of sins.

A good point that we agree that Christ did not ask one of worship, this is a good start ...You think that is
what makes Christ is equal to God is his actions and his miracles, well, we can if we discuss and analyze, as I said all that Christ said and done to get together at the truth.


First: the forgiveness of sins:


(KJV) (Leviticus) (Lv-4-35) (And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar , according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.)


(KJV) (Numbers) (Nm-15-25) (And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance :)


Are priests also because they gods forgive sins?


(KJV) (Isaiah) (Is-33-24) (And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.)

Did the Prophet Isaiah is also the God because he forgave sins?!

How is Jesus forgives sins himself and he himself says in


(KJV)(Matthew)(Mt-6-12)(And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.)

And also at the time of the non-real crucifixion called the Jews for forgiveness, saying:

(KJV)(Luke)(Lk-23-34)(Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.)

And the question that must be asked: Do you pray Christ himself (if indeed God) in order to forgive the Jews for their sins.

Follow shortly ...

[مهندس احمد امام]

John 5:21-23—“

If you are a little patient and read what came after only five numbers:

(KJV)(John)(Jn-5-30)(I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.)

nothing
nothing
nothing
I can of mine own self do nothing

Do you know the meaning of another word for nothing, nothing mean - nothing, Jesus says to you that he can not do nothing by himself, is it live the dead by himself or miraculously by God, does not want to see for yourself, read if the words of Christ:

(KJV)(John)(Jn-11-41)(Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.)
(KJV)(John)(Jn-11-42)(And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.)

He did not live the dead himself, but thank Father who heard his prayer

[مهندس احمد امام]

You talking about prostrating to Christ because he is God:


Well: There prostration of worship and prostration of greeting and maximize this type was common "when Jews and was present" frequently in the Old Testament exemplified:


Joseph's brothers worshiped him:


(KJV) (Genesis) (Gn-42-6) (And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.)



Joseph also a god ?!


Prophet Lot prostrate for landlords to say are Abdkma:


(KJV) (Genesis) (Gn-19-1) (And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground ;)
(KJV) (Genesis) (Gn-19-2) (And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.)

Angels also gods?!



- Prophet Solomon prostrate woman:


(KJV) (1 Kings) (Kgs1-2-19) (Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne , and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.)


Do women also god?!



Abraham prostrate to the people:


(KJV) (Genesis) (Gn-23-7) (And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.)


Great all the people all become gods ...



The prostration, prostration of respect and worship, what is the meaning of this?!


(KJV) (Mark) (Mk-15-19) (And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.)


Finally:


Who was prostrate and praying Jesus!!?


(KJV) (Matthew) (Mt-26-39) (And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.)

[مهندس احمد امام]

For the words of Thomas: My Lord and my God, they did not go to Christ but was exclamation For This cry from the usual saying an "expression of surprise (God, O Lord, O God, my God).


Is it logical to be God or the Lord spent with them three years and did not recognize the that the Lord is, Is this logical??.


Word Lord and God not Echtassan God Almighty alone by the concept of Old and New Testament as we will mention later.


Peter the Apostle then said ":


(KJV) (Acts) (Acts-2-22) (Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know :)


I'm done and I'm waiting Talkback form and I hope that we take your evidence to the divinity of Christ, step by step because it this will be very stressful and I do not have enough time to respond to all what you said, for the Bible we can talk about it after the end of this debate.

[pandora]

Welcome again

[COLOR=#000080][SIZE=5][FONT=times new roman]We talked earlier in my presentation about that Christ said to his disciples: Father and your Father, my God and your God ... Guest Esquire's reply was:




A good point that we agree that Christ did not ask one of worship, this is a good start ...You think that is
what makes Christ is equal to God is his actions and his miracles, well, we can if we discuss and analyze, as I said all that Christ said and done to get together at the truth.


First: the forgiveness of sins:


(KJV) (Leviticus) (Lv-4-35) (And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar , according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.)


(KJV) (Numbers) (Nm-15-25) (And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance :)


Are priests also because they gods forgive sins?


(KJV) (Isaiah) (Is-33-24) (And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.)

Did the Prophet Isaiah is also the God because he forgave sins?!

How is Jesus forgives sins himself and he himself says in


(KJV)(Matthew)(Mt-6-12)(And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.)

And also at the time of the non-real crucifixion called the Jews for forgiveness, saying:

(KJV)(Luke)(Lk-23-34)(Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.)

And the question that must be asked: Do you pray Christ himself (if indeed God) in order to forgive the Jews for their sins.

Follow shortly ...

I do not think Christ is of God just based on his miracles and the forgiveness of sins alone. There are also the prophecies of the Old Testament, which Jesus fulfilled, these can not be ignored.

Surely He took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered Him stricken by God,
smitten by Him, and afflicted.
But He was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His wounds we were healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:4-6)

This from the Old Testament, who do you think it refers to?

No, priests nor prophets can not forgive sins. Only God alone can forgive sins. I could say to someone who transgressed against me.."I forgive you", that is in my power to do so. That does not make me God!!! Only God can choose to forgive the person who transgressed against me. However if I choose to forgive them in my lifetime on earth, it does not take the sin they committed against me. They can only seek forgiveness from God.

I as most Christians direct our prayers to God, on the instruction of Christ. Jesus Christ has shown us the path to Gods grace, love and mercy and its through him we are saved. :)

[pandora]

You talking about prostrating to Christ because he is God:


Well: There prostration of worship and prostration of greeting and maximize this type was common "when Jews and was present" frequently in the Old Testament exemplified:


Joseph's brothers worshiped him:


(KJV) (Genesis) (Gn-42-6) (And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.)



Joseph also a god ?!


Prophet Lot prostrate for landlords to say are Abdkma:


(KJV) (Genesis) (Gn-19-1) (And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground ;)
(KJV) (Genesis) (Gn-19-2) (And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.)

Angels also gods?!



- Prophet Solomon prostrate woman:


(KJV) (1 Kings) (Kgs1-2-19) (Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne , and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.)


Do women also god?!



Abraham prostrate to the people:


(KJV) (Genesis) (Gn-23-7) (And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.)


Great all the people all become gods ...



The prostration, prostration of respect and worship, what is the meaning of this?!


(KJV) (Mark) (Mk-15-19) (And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.)


Finally:


Who was prostrate and praying Jesus!!?


(KJV) (Matthew) (Mt-26-39) (And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.)

There are reasons a person may prostrate themselves, not all to worship God. It was used to show subservience to a Monarch or leader. God would know the difference in the heart of one who is prostrating in worship through love of God and a person who is not sincere in his actions.

Jesus although was of God, would naturally prostrate himself in worship to God, because as from the words of Jesus he tells us that "the Father is greater than I".

14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done ? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him. 15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified . 16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band. 17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, 18 And began to salute him, Hail , King of the Jews! 19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. 20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. 21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by , coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross. 22 And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is , being interpreted , The place of a skull. 23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh : but he received it not. 24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take .

the above verse tells of Christ's trial before his crucifixion, where he was mocked.

your final point, yes it was Jesus, although he knew it was his fate by Gods will that he was to die, as a flesh and blood man it would only be normal to wish otherwise. But he accepted Gods will above his own.