"كيف نأمن على الكتاب المقدس؟" مناظرة بيني وبين مشرف الحوار المتمدن .. مصورة

[أبو محمد السلفي]

اليوم بإذن الله نستكمل الموضوع وأنقل لكم ردي على الهلوسات السابقة :)

07-14-2013, 07:00 PM

المشاركة رقم: 31

المعلومات الكاتب: ابو محمد اللقب: عضو فعال الصــورة الشخصية البيانات التسجيل: Jun 2013 العضوية: 39407 المشاركات: 255 [+] بمعدل : 0.60 يوميا المخالفات : 0 التحذيرات : 0 اخر زياره : [+] معدل التقييم: 2 نقاط التقييم: 10 معلومآت عني الجنس: دولتي: الوظيفة: سيرتي الذاتيـة: الحالة الإجتماعية: اتصل بي او راسلني الـتوآجد

كاتب الموضوع : ابو محمد المنتدى : حوار دينى رد: كيف نأمن على الكتاب المقدس ؟ Share on facebook Share on twitter Share on email Share on print More Sharing Services الحمد لله رب العالمين والصلاة والسلام على خير المرسلين .. وبعد تحية لكل من محاوري الكريم الاستاذ غنمي صارت غنيمة والاستاذ محاسن يقول الشافعي رحمه الله : " أجادل العالِمَ فأغلبه، ويجادلني الجاهلُ فيغلبني". ########## حذف رد على كلام غير موجه لك اقتباس لا تخلط الامور ياعزيزى لماذا تقارن بارت ايرمان بالنسبه لنا وبين ابن كثير بالنسبه لكم ركز عزيزى انا ممكن اجبلك عالم من علماء الشيعه يتهمكم بتحريف القران فهل تقبل هذا حجه عليكم؟؟؟ ان قبلته اخبرنى وانا تحت امرك يااستاذ انت قلت انه يلزمني اذا استشهدت بقول عالم ، فكل قول يقوله يلزمني وعلي الإيمان به !! وهذا خطأ فادح. وبارت ايرمان من العلماء المشهود بعلمه في مجال النقد النصي والكثير من العلماء يستشهدون بأقواله.. مع العلم أني دعمت كلام ايرمان باستشهادات أخرى. اقتباس هذا لا يدل على التحريف يا استاذ طالما هناك نسخ من المخطوطات الاصليه فهل تعلم معنى نسخه او نسخ ؟؟؟ الكلام ده مردود عليه قبل كده .. وقلنا أنه لا توجد أصول ولا نسخ الأصول بل ولا نسخ نسخ نسخ تلك الأصول ..كل ما بين أيدينا الآن هو مخطوطات نالها التحريف .. وفي مشاركتي هذه لن أعيد كتابة ما كتبته سابقا والحكم للقارئ اقتباس فالكتاب المقدس موجود من القرون الاولى لكنه فى صوره اجزاء ياعزيزى اما ما تقوله انت حدث متاخرا هو عن جمع الكتاب المقدس كنسخه كامله هل فهمت؟؟ وضعت لك جدولا بظهور كل سفر ياعزيزي وبتاريخه وحالته التي وجد عليها .. وها هو مرة أخرى Book Earliest Manuscript Date (CE) Condition Matthew P64, P67, P104 c. 200 Fragments Mark P45 3rd century Large Fragments Luke P4 c. 200 Fragment John P52 c. 125-150 Fragment Acts P38 3rd century Fragment Romans P46 c. 200 Fragments 1 Corinthians P46 c. 200 Fragments 2 Corinthians P46 c. 200 Fragments Galatians P46 c. 200 Fragments Ephesians P46 c. 200 Fragments Philippians P46 c. 200 Fragments Colossians P46 c. 200 Fragments 1 Thessalonians P46 c. 200 Fragments 2 Thessalonians P92 3rd / 4th century Fragment 1 Timothy 4th century Complete 2 Timothy 4th century Complete Titus P32 c. 200 Fragment Philemon P87 3rd century Fragment Hebrews P46 c. 200 Fragments James P23, P20 3rd century Fragment 1 Peter P72 3rd / 4th century Fragments 2 Peter P72 3rd / 4th century Fragments 1 John P9 3rd century Fragment 2 John 0232 3rd / 4th century Fragment 3 John 4th century Complete Jude P72 3rd / 4th century Fragments Revelation P98 2nd century Fragment فهل تفخر بأسفار وُجدت في شكل قصاصات مهترئة تحوي بضع نصوص فقط ؟!!!! كيف لك أن تفخر بأقدم مثلا مثل البردية 52 والتي تحتوي فقط على زوج من الأعداد من انجيل يوحنا في المقدمة وزوج آخر في الخلف وتعتبره دليلا على عدم وقوع التحريف ؟!!!! وهناك بعض الاسفار لم تظهر إلا في القرن الرابع مثل الرسالة الأولى لتيموثاوس والتي كتبت في الستينات من القرن الأول !!!! انظر لهذا الموقع Bible Query NT - Early Manuscripts of Paul فهو يعطيك أيضا كل سفر وأقدم المخطوطات التي ظهر فيها يقول العالم ديفيد فينسي في كتاب New Testament Introduction, NIV صـ 366: "عندما يفحص الباحثون في هذه المخطوطات لتحديد ما كان موجودا في أصول العهد الجديد ، لا ينظرون فقط إلى أي مخطوط هو الأقدم بل أي مخطوط هو الذي نُسِخ بواسطة ناسخ أكثر حرصا وحذرا" ويقول Jack Finegan في كتابه Encountering New Testament Manuscripts: A Working Introduction to Textual ... صــ 55 : " على الرغم من أنه إذا وجدت مخطوطة قديمة منسوخة بطريقة غير جيدة أو منسوخة من نسخة غير جيدة فتعتبر المخطوطة المتأخرة عنها المنسوخة بعناية أو منسوخة من نسخة جيدة هي الأفضل" وما قلته ياعزيزي حدث متأخرا ليس عن جمع كتابك المقدس كنسخة كاملة بل عن المخطوطات المنسوخة التي تحوي العهد الجديد بالكامل وهي كما في استشهادك أنت الذي احضرته من موقع الانبا تكلا على لسان الانبا شنودة بأنها ترجع الى القرن الرابع. ما الذي يضمن أن تلك المخطوطات مطابقة للأصول في ظل اختفاء تلك الأصول وفي ظل الاختلاف الكبير بين المخطوطات حيث لا توجد مخطوطتان متطابقتان وفي ظل هذا الفارق الزمني (من القرن الأول إلى الرابع)؟!!! كما أن معظم الاختلافات بين المخطوطات حدثت في القرون المبكرة الأولى يقول فيليب كومفرت في نفس المصدرEncountering the Manuscripts: An Introduction to New Testament Paleography ... صـ 260: "The Alands affirm that the NewTestament scribes felt free to makechanges in the text, "improving it by their own standards of correctness, whether grammatically, stylistically, or more substantively."" أيضا في كتاب L. Vaganay & C-B Amphoux (Trans. J. Heimerdinger), An Introduction To New Testament Textual Criticism, 1986, op. cit., pp. 89-111. "The majority of textual variants that are preserved in the surviving documents, even the documents produced in a later age, originated during the first three Christian centuries. This conviction is not based on idle speculation. In contrast to the relative stability of the New Testament text in later times, our oldest witnesses display a remarkable degree of variation. The evidence suggests that during the earliest period of its transmission the New Testament text was in a state of flux, that it became standardized in some regions by the fourth century, and subject to fairly rigid control (by comparison) only in the Byzantine period." فالتحريف في المخطوطات غير المتعمد والمتعمد ياعزيزي أمر مفروغ منه بين العلماء. اقتباس هما 300000 ولا 400000 و200000 ولا 150000 ؟؟؟؟؟ ولا عددهم غير معروف ؟؟؟ وعايز بعد ده كلوا تقيم كلامهم حجه علينا ؟؟؟ طيب قولى اختار اى رقم انا منهم :) كل عالم ياعزيزي تكلم بما وقعت عليه يديه من المخطوطات والصحيح أن عددهم غير معروف .. يقول ايرمان ي كتاب misquoting jesus - pg 95-96: "التغييرات العمدية يميل تحديدها إلى أن يكون أكثر صعوبة بعض الشئ.وذلك تحديدًا لأنها حدثت (بوضوح) مع سبق الإصرار والترصد، كما أن هذه التغييرات تميل إلى أن تعطي معنى مفيدًا. وحيث إنها تعطي معنى مفيدًا ، فسيكون هناك دائما نقّادٌ يجادلون حول أن هذه التغييرات تعطي المعنى الأفضل- ما يعني أنها هي القراءة الأصلية." فمن الممكن أن يغير الناسخ عن عمد ويعطي التغيير معنى فيحدث تنازع هل هذه هي القراءة الأصلية أم تحريف .. وعليه ،وجود هذا النوع من التغييرات يعطي صعوبة في تقدير عدد الاخلافات. وبعدين ده كلام علمائك أنت مش أنا  كما لا أدري متى سترد علي ردا علميا أكاديميا من كلام العلماء.. يتبع بحول الله ...

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07-17-2013, 04:08 AM

المشاركة رقم: 38

المعلومات الكاتب: ابو محمد اللقب: عضو فعال الصــورة الشخصية البيانات التسجيل: Jun 2013 العضوية: 39407 المشاركات: 255 [+] بمعدل : 0.60 يوميا المخالفات : 0 التحذيرات : 0 اخر زياره : [+] معدل التقييم: 2 نقاط التقييم: 10 معلومآت عني الجنس: دولتي: الوظيفة: سيرتي الذاتيـة: الحالة الإجتماعية: اتصل بي او راسلني الـتوآجد

كاتب الموضوع : ابو محمد المنتدى : حوار دينى رد: كيف نأمن على الكتاب المقدس ؟ Share on facebook Share on twitter Share on email Share on print More Sharing Services الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله محمد بن عبد الله .. وبعد استكمل بحول الله ما بدأته يقول الاستاذ غنمي صارت غنيمة كلاما عجيبا اقتباس قد طلبت منك المصدر بطريقه معينه فلم يحدث هذا لذلك تحمل بقى نفسى طريقتك الكيل الذى تكيلون به يكال لكم ويذاد فاتحمل بقى يااستاذي العزيز .. هو حضرتك دخلت في مناظرات قبل كده أو في حوارات أديان؟!! عاوز ايه اكثر من اسم الكتاب ورقم الصفحة بل وقد اعطيك الموقع تقول مرة مش بيفتح ومرة هات موقع غير ده .. انا مش ملزم اعطيك اصلا رابط لكلامي .. انا لي اكثر من ثمان سنوات في حوارات الأديان لم أر مثل ذلك في حياتي!! ويكمل الاستاذ المحاور كلامه العجيب ويقول: اقتباس كل الاختلافات هى عباره عن اخطاء هجائيه فى الترجمات مش فى المخطوطات الاصليه ولا تؤثر على العقيده المسيحيه فى شئ كل الاختلافات هي عبارة عن اخطاء هجائية !!!!!!! هل حضرتك قرأت كتابا واحدا في النقد النص قبل ذلك؟؟ لم اسمع بعالم واحد قال بهذا الكلام .. هو حضرتك بتحلم يااستاذ غنمي صارت غنيمة ولا ايه ؟!! الأخطاء الهجائية ياعزيزي تمثل اغلب الاختلافات وليس كلها بنسبة 75% خد عندك كلام دانيال والاس يقول: "Ehrman is quite right that orthodox scribes altered the text in hundreds of places. In fact, it’s probably in the thousands. Chief among them are changes to the Gospels to harmonize them in wording with each other." المصدر An Interview with Daniel B. Wallace on the New Testament Manuscripts – Justin Taylor الأرثوذكس فقط وحدهم غيروا في المخطوطات في الآلاف من المواضع .. فلك أن تتخيل غير الارثوذكس مثل الناسخ الوثني الذي نسخ البردية 66.. والتحريف اشتكى منه العديد من الآباء مثل يوحنا ذهبي الفم وجيروم وديونسيوس واوريجانوس ويوستينوس الشهيد ووو.. وحضرتك تيجي تقولي كل الاختلافات اخطاء هجائية!! هو حضرتك ماسمعتش عن الأخطاء المتعمدة في المخطوطات intentional errors ؟؟ طيب عمرك في حياتك قرأت كتاب واحد يتكلم عن النقد النصي؟؟!! أومال نص رسالة يوحنا الأولى 7:5 اللي انا جبتهولك ده فيه خطأ هجائي !!!!! اقرأ ياعزيزي ومتع عينيك دائرة المعرف الكتابية ـ الجزء الثالث ـ حرف خ ـ مخطوطات العهد الجديد ـ نقل نصوص العهد الجديد ـ ص 294 : 295 "وقد حدثت أحياناً بعض الإضافات لتدعيم فكر لاهوتي، كما حدث في إضافة عبارة "واللذين يشهدون في السماء هم ثلاثة"(1يو5: 7) حيث أن هذه العبارة لا توجد في أي مخطوطة يونانية ترجع إلى ما قبل القرن الخامس عشر، ولعل هذه العبارة جاءت أصلاً في تعليق هامشي في مخطوطة لاتينية، وليس كإضافة مقصودة إلى نص الكتاب المقدس ، ثم أدخلها أحد النسَّاخ في صلب النص . " هل هذا لا يؤثر على العقيدة ؟!!! هل هذا مجرد خطأ هجائي ؟!!! طبعا وباقي أقوال العلماء عن تحريف هذا النص موجود في المشاركات السابقة ولم ترد عليه فلن أعيد كتابته .. ولكن خذ هذا التحدي : أحضر لي عالم نقد نصي واحد أثبت أن هذا النص لم يتعرض للتحريف وسوف اترك هذا الحوار وأعلن أسفي.. وبتقول ياعزيزي كل الأخطاء هجائية .. هو حضرتك بصيت للجدول والكلام اللي تحته كويس؟!! ننظر سويا لهذا الجدول في كتاب K. Aland and B. Aland, The Text Of The New Testament: An Introduction To The Critical Editions & To The Theory & Practice Of Modern Text Criticism, 1995, op. cit., p. 29.: Book Total Number Of Verses Variant Free Verses-Total Percentage Matthew 1071 642 59.9 % Mark 678 306 45.1 % Luke 1151 658 57.2 % John 869 450 51.8 % Acts 1006 677 67.3 % Romans 433 327 75.5 % 1 Corinthians 437 331 75.7 % 2 Corinthians 256 200 78.1 % Galatians 149 114 76.5 % Ephesians 155 118 76.1 % Philippians 104 73 70.2 % Colossians 95 69 72.6 % 1 Thessalonians 89 61 68.5 % 2 Thessalonians 47 34 72.3 % 1 Timothy 113 92 81.4 % 2 Timothy 83 66 79.5 % Titus 46 33 71.7 % Philemon 25 19 76.0 % Hebrews 303 234 77.2 % James 108 66 61.1 % 1 Peter 105 70 66.6 % 2 Peter 61 32 52.5 % 1 John 105 76 72.4 % 2 John 13 8 61.5 % 3 John 15 11 73.3 % Jude 25 18 72.0 % Revelation 405 214 52.8 % Total 7947 4999 62.9 % هذا الجدول ياعزيزي يعطي عدد النصوص التي يوجد فيها اتفاق تام بين سبع طبعات نقدية وهي: Nestle-Aland ,Tischendorf, Westcott-Hort, von Soden, Vogels, Merk, Bover النصوص التي فيها اتفاق بين السبع طبعات 62.9% فقط !!! طبعا هذا الجدول أهمل الأخطاء الهجائية أو النصوص التي تختلف في كلمة واحدة مثلا ، وإلا النسبة كانت ستكون مروعة. فأين ذهبت ال 99% ؟!!! للقراء أعين يامحاوري العزيز اقتباس ثانيآ القصاصات التى تتكلم عنها يا استاذ كانت تحتوى الكتاب المقدس بالكامل لكنه على اجزء وهذا كما بينا من قبل كان زمانها فى القرن الاول اما عن النسخ الكامله بعد تجميعها هذا ما تتكلم عنه حضرتك انه حدث فى القرن الثالث الميلادى هو حضرتك مختش بالك ان فيه اسفار اصلا لم تظهر الا في القرن الثالث او الرابع !!! قرن اول ايه اللي حضرتك بتقول عنه ده اذا كان اقدم مخطوطة ترجع الى 130 ميلادية ؟!!!!! وعندك موقع فوق وضعته لك للتعرف على كل سفر واقدم المخطوطات التي وجد فيها. اقتباس وايه المشكله فى الكلام ده هو بيقول ان المهمه الاساسيه للنقد النصلى هو استعاده او الحصول على النص الاصلى لا ياعزيزي هو مقالش كده هو قال ولننظر إلى وجهة نظر فيليب كومفرت نفسه في نفس المصدر صـ 291: " Thus, I echo Silva 's comments entirely, when he says: "I would like to affirm — not only with Hort, but with practically all students of ancient documents — that the recovery of the original text (i.e., the text in its initial form, prior to the alterations produced in the copying process) remains the primary task of textual criticism يقول ان استعادة النص الاصلى في شكله الاول ستبقى المهمة الاساسية للنقد النصي .. اقتباس هل تعلم انت معنى هذا الكلام اصلا؟؟؟ "وأخيرا، يجب أن أعترف أن هناك العديد من الحالات التي تكون فيها واحدة أو أكثر القراءات المختلفة لديهم مؤهلات مساوية للمطالبة بالحق باعتباره الصيغة الأصلية هذا ما يقوله الرجل !! ان هناك حلات تقول على بعض القراءات انها النص الاصلى كما ترى هى ذلك ايه المشكله ايضا؟؟؟ انظر مرة أخرى إلى اعترافه الخطير في نفس الصفحة : " Finally, I must admit that there are several instances wherein one or more variant readings have equal qualifications to claim the right as being the original wording نعم ياعزيزي هذا اعتراف خطير جدا بيقول فيه حالات كثيرة قراءة مختلفة أو أكثر لهم نفس المؤهلات للمطالبة بكونها النص او الصيغة الاصلية !! لما يكون في كثير من النصوص تحتمل اكثر من قراءة وكل قراءة لديها ما يؤهلها .. سيحدث تنازع بين العلماء وبالتالي لا يمكن الجزم بواحدة من تلك القراءات المختتلفة وبالتالي الله يعوض عليك في النص الاصلي. اقتباس يعني اقتباسات الآباء ياعزيزي وظيفتها تكميلية وداعمة فقط اسم الكتاب والصفحه البركه فيك بقى شد حيلك المهم تكمليه لماذا ؟؟؟؟ وداعمه لماذا؟؟؟ داعمه لصحه الكتاب المقدس اشكرك على هذا الاعتراف عزيزى لالالا ياعزيزي .. قلت لك القراء لهم أعين نعيد الاقتباس تاني في كتاب the text of the new testament p.280 يحدثنا كرت ألاند وباربرا الاند عن هذا : The primary authority for a critical textual decision lies with the Greek manuscript tradition, with the versions and Fathers serving no more than a supplementary and corroborative function, particularly in passages where their underlying Greek text cannot be reconstructed with absolute certainty." واقرأ من كلامهم ايضا في نفس المرجع صـ 171: It is as true of the New Testament quotations in the Church Fathers as it is of the versions that they are often misjudged and consequently misused. The route from a modern edition of a Church Father's works back to the text which he read in his New Testament may be long and tortuous... But even when a modern critical edition is available there is no certainty that it preserves the New Testament quotations of a work as they occurred in its original form. يوضح لك ايرمان ايضا في كتابه Didymus The Blind And The Text Of The Gospels, 1986, op. cit., p. 5. See the footnote 2. "Patristic sources provide primary evidence for the history of "the text but only secondary evidence for the original text itself اقتباس وما الفائده من حفظ الصحابه للقران طاما الاهك تعهد بحفظه ؟؟ وأزواجهم ومعاملاتهم وأسواقهم وأسفارهم وجهادهم وجميع شؤون حياتهم وجعل كل ذلك تشريعاللأمة جميعاء.واستأمنهم الله على حفظ القرآن وجمعه وكتابته وروايته ونشره في العالمين وجعلهم واسطة بين النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وبين أمته يحفظون منه ويبلغون عنه منتديات ستار تايمز طيب اعذرني ياعزيزي لازم اضحك ههههههههههه منتديات ايه بس ياعزيزي اللي بتستشهد بها هداك الله. حفظ الصحابة للقرآن وحفظنا له لأجل أن نفوز بأعلى الدرجات في الجنة فمنزلتنا في الجنة ان شاء الله عند آخر آية نحفظها .. ذكر العيني في كتابه الماتع عمدة القاري شرح صحيح البخاري الجزء 13 : أن بعض علماء النصارى سأل محمد بن الوضاح، فقال: ما بال كتابكم معشر المسلمين لا زيادة فيه ولا نقصان، وكتابنا بخلاف ذلك. فقال: لأن الله وكل حفظ كتابكم إليكم. فقال: استحفظوا من كتاب الله، فلما وكله إلى مخلوق دخله الخرم والنقصان، وقال في كتابنا: إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ [سورة الحجر: 9]. فتولى الله حفظه فلا سبيل إلى الزيادة فيه والنقصان. اقتباس كل الكنائس تؤمن بنفس الانجيل العهد الجديد و هو واحد عند جميع الطوائف اما العهد القديم فتؤمن كل الكنائس بكل اسفاره ما عدا الكنيسة البروتستانتيه التي اخذت بالاسفار المعترفة في مجمع جامنيا اليهودي و هذا المجمع قد رفض النسخة السبعينية و عاد فقط الي نسخة عزرا الكاتب و ما تم حذفه في مجمع جامنيا ( اليهودي ) هو سبع اسفار يغلب عليها الطابع التاريخي عدا سفري الحكمة و يشوع بن سيراخ و لا تمس العقيدة في اي شئ و قد اخذ البروتستانت بقرارات هذا المجمع اليهودي المتأخر و هذا ما احدث الفارق العددي في اسفار العهد القديم الحياة المسيحية هي الالتقاء بالله و الحياة في المسيح يكفي ان اعرفه عن طريق سفر واحد او اصحاح واحد او حتي عظة واحدة لكي احيا معه فليست العبادة نصوص جامده و فرائض حرفية ميته بل هي معرفة الله . ياعزيزي مين قالك ان العهد الجديد لا خلاف عليه ؟!!! انت تعرف قائمة العهد الجديد للكنيسة الحبشية ؟!!! طيب بلاش ان هعتبر كلامك صح ما رديت على السؤال برضه : من منكم على الحق ومن على الباطل ويستحق أن يطبق عليه نص سفر الرؤيا 22: 18 لأَنِّي أَشْهَدُ لِكُلِّ مَنْ يَسْمَعُ أَقْوَالَ نُبُوَّةِ هذَا الْكِتَابِ: إِنْ كَانَ أَحَدٌ يَزِيدُ عَلَى هذَا، يَزِيدُ اللهُ عَلَيْهِ الضَّرَبَاتِ الْمَكْتُوبَةَ فِي هذَا الْكِتَابِ. 19 وَإِنْ كَانَ أَحَدٌ يَحْذِفُ مِنْ أَقْوَالِ كِتَابِ هذِهِ النُّبُوَّةِ، يَحْذِفُ اللهُ نَصِيبَهُ مِنْ سِفْرِ الْحَيَاةِ، وَمِنَ الْمَدِينَةِ الْمُقَدَّسَةِ، وَمِنَ الْمَكْتُوبِ فِي هذَا الْكِتَابِ. ؟.؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ الاجابة يااستاذ الله يكرمك اقتباس ادخل هنا كتاب الراعي لمؤلفه هرماس - كتاب مدخل في علم الآبائيات: الباترولوجي | St-Takla.org وهنا ايضآ رسالة برنابا - كتاب مدخل في علم الآبائيات: الباترولوجي | St-Takla.org تاني روابط !!! فين ردك يامشرف الحوار المتمدن؟!! مش ده كان كلامك اقتباس مش كل الاقتباسات يا استاذ فلابد من صحه الاقتباس ان يكون مدعم بوجوده فى احد المخطوطات حتى نتاكد منه وجبت لك وقلت لك أما عن المخطوطات ياعزيزي فهذه الاسفار موجودة تفضل دائرة المعارف الكتابية تحت كلمة برنابا تقول :"تحتوى النسخة السينائية علىرسالة برنابا بعد سفرالرؤيا مباشرة وقبل راعي هرماس." أيضا في الموسوعة الكاثوليكية وهي تتحدث عن المخطوطة السينائية تقول : " a great part of the Old Testament and the entire New Testament, besides the Epistle of Barnabas, and part of the "Shepherd" of Hermas, of which two works no copies in the original Greek were known to exist." الرابط CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Codex Sinaiticus ومن موقع الانبا تكلا أنقل لك "وإن بعضًا من هذه الكتابات وجدت في نهاية الأسفار المقدسة للعهد الجديد. فمثلًا راعي هرماس، ورسالة برنابا، وجد نصهما في المخطوطة السينائية Codex Sinaiticus. ورسالة كليمندس الروماني الأولى في المخطوطة الإسكندرانية Codex Alexandrinus. وهى مخطوطات تحوى أسفار الكتاب المقدس بعهديه." الرابط st-takla.org/Coptic-Faith-Creed-Dogma/Coptic-Rite-n-Ritual-Taks-Al-Kanisa/Dictionary-of-Coptic-Ritual-Terms/1-Coptic-Terminology_Alef/Abaa2- Rasolioun__The-Apostolic-Fathers.html يعني طلبت ان يكون الاقتباس مدعم بمخطوطات فجئت لك بدليل وجودها في المخطوطات فكان الرد رابطين .. ياسلام على الحوار العلمي. طبعا مردتش خاااااااااااالص على الكلام ده هقتبسهولك تاني اهو يقول العلامة يوحنا ذهبي الفم في كتاب npnf1-10. St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the gospel of saint matthew and what manner of prophet said this? Be not curious, nor overbusy.for many of the prophetic writings have been lost; and this one may see from the history of the chronicles.22 for being negligent, and continually falling into ungodliness, some they suffered to perish,others they themselves burnt up23 and cut to pieces. The latter fact jeremiah relates;24 the former, he who composed the fourth book of kings, saying, that after 2r 22,8, etc) a long time the book of deuteronomy was hardly found, buried somewhere and lost. But if, when there was no barbarian there, they so betrayed their books, much more when the barbarians had overrun them. على الرابط NPNF1-10. St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew - Christian Classics Ethereal Library اقتباس ياعزيزى هذه الاشياء تتم باختيار الروح القدس فمثلا فى اختيار البابا يتم عمل قرعه هيكليه ويقوم طفل بسحب ورقه من الورقات فهل نقول ان هذا الطفل هو من اختار البابا ؟؟؟ لا طبعا ربنا بيرشد قدسيه بالروح القدس للاختيار طيب ممكن تخلي الروح القدس تقول لنا من هو كاتب سفر استير ؟؟ انظروا يانصارى كتابكم يحدد اسفاره على أي اساس يقول بروس متزجر في كتاب The Canon of the New Testament. Its Origin, Development, and Significance صـ 246: "أخيراً، في يوم 8أبريل 1546م، بواسطة تصويت 24مقابل 15، وامتناع 16عن التصويت، المجمع قدم إعلاناً ( قانون الكتاب ) الذي فيه، ولأول مرة في تاريخ الكنيسة، مسألة محتويات الكتاب المقدس تم عملها مقال إيماني مطلق مأكد بلعنة" تحديد أسفار الكتاب المقدس بالتصويت مش على أساس علمي !!! لا حول ولا قوة الا بالله .. فعلا مش بالمزاج مع التنويه أن من اختلف في قانونية اسفار الكتاب المقدس آباء قديسون.. وطبعا محاوري العزيز عاوز حد يقرأ له كمان .. مش كفاية جبت الرابط .. لا.. عاوزني اقرأ له كمان ههههههههه لا حول ولا قوة الا بالله هظللك من مشاركتك كمان أنا تحت أمرك اقتباس معلش اصل نظرى ضعيف خد كل الكلام المكتوب فى الرابط الذى وضعته حضرتك وحدد لى اين الكلام المنقول فى الاقتباس اعلاه Matt. II. 16. “Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth.” Yet surely it was a case not for anger, but for fear and awe: he ought to have perceived that he was attempting impossible things. But he is not refrained. For when a soul is insensible and incurable, it yields to none of the medicines given by God. See for example this man following up his former efforts,363and adding many murders to one, and hurried down the steep any whither. For driven wild by this anger, and envy, as by some demon, he takes account of nothing, but rages even against nature herself, and his anger against the wise men who had mocked him he vents upon the children that had done no wrong: venturing then in Palestine upon a deed akin to the things that had been done in Egypt. For he “sent forth,” it is said, “and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.” Here attend to me carefully. Because many things are uttered by many very idly touching these children, and the course of events is charged with injustice, and some of these express their perplexity about it in a more moderate way, others with more of audaciousness and frenzy. In order then that we may free these of their madness and those of their perplexity, suffer us to discourse a little upon this topic. Plainly, then, if this be their charge, that the children were left to be slain, they should find fault likewise with the slaughter of the soldiers that kept Peter.364 For as here, when the young child had fled, other children are massacred in the place of Him who was sought; even so then, too, Peter having been delivered from his prison and chains by the angel, one of like name with this tyrant, and like temper too, when he had sought him, and found him not, slew instead of him the soldiers that kept him. “But what is this?” it may be said; “why this is not a solution, but an enhancement of our difficulty.” I know it too, and for this intent I bring forward all such cases, that to all I may adduce one and the same solution. What then is the solution of these things? or what fair account of them can we give? That Christ was not the cause of their slaughter, but the king’s cruelty; as indeed neither was Peter to those others, but the madness of Herod. For if he had seen the wall broken through, or the doors overthrown, he might, perhaps, have had ground to accuse the soldiers that kept the apostle, of neglect; but now when all things continued in due form,365and the doors were thrown wide open, 53 and the chains fastened to the hands of them that kept him (for in fact they were bound unto him), he might have inferred from these things (that is, if he had been strictly doing a judge’s office on the matters before him), that the event was not of human power or craft, but of some divine and wonder-working power; he might have adored the doer of these things, instead of waging war with the sentinels. For God had so done all that He did, that so far from exposing the keepers, He was by their means leading the king unto the truth. But if he proved senseless, what signifies to366the skillful Physician of Souls, managing all things to do good, the insubordination of him that is diseased? And just this one may say in the present case likewise. For, wherefore art thou wroth, O Herod, at being mocked of the wise men? didst thou not know that the birth was divine? didst thou not summon the chief priests? didst thou not gather together the scribes? did not they, being called, bring the prophet also with them into thy court of judgment, proclaiming these things beforehand from of old? Didst thou not see how the old things agreed with the new? Didst thou not hear that a star also ministered to these men? Didst thou not reverence the zeal of the barbarians? Didst thou not marvel at their boldness? Wast thou not horror-struck at the truth of the prophet? Didst thou not from the former things perceive the very last also? Wherefore didst thou not reason with thyself from all these things, that this event was not of the craft of the wise men, but of a Divine Power, duly dispensing all things? And even if thou wert deceived by the wise men, what is that to367the young children, who have done no wrong? 2. “Yea,” saith one, “Herod thou hast full well deprived of excuse, and proved him blood-thirsty; but thou hast not yet solved the question about the injustice of what took place. For if he did unjustly, wherefore did God permit it?” Now, what should we say to this? That which I do not cease to say continually, in church, in the market-place and everywhere; that which I also wish you carefully to keep in mind, for it is a sort of rule for us, suited to every such perplexity. What then is our rule, and what our saying? That although there be many that injure, yet is there not so much as one that is injured. And in order that the riddle may not disturb you too much, I add the solution too with all speed. I mean, that what we may suffer unjustly from any one, it tells either to the doing away of our sins, God so putting that wrong to our account; or unto the recompense of rewards. And that what I may say may be clearer, let us conduct our argument in the way of illustration. As thus: suppose a certain servant who owes much money to his master, and then that this servant has been despitefully used by unjust men, and robbed of some of his goods. If then the master, in whose power it was to stay the plunderer and wrong doer, should not indeed restore that same property, but should reckon what was taken away towards what was owed him by his servant, is the servant then injured? By no means. But what if he should repay him even more? Has he not then even gained more than he has lost? Every one, I suppose, perceives it. Now this same reckoning we are to make in regard of our own sufferings. For as to the fact, that in consideration of what we may suffer wrongfully, we either have sins done away, or receive more glorious crowns, if the amount of our sins be not so great: hear what Paul says concerning him that had committed fornication, “Deliver ye such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved.”368“But what is this?” you may say, “for the discourse was about them that were injured by others, not about them that are corrected by their teachers.” I might answer, that there is no difference;369for the question was, whether to suffer evil be not an indignity to the sufferer. But, to bring my argument nearer the very point inquired of; remember David, how, when he saw Shimei at a certain time assailing him, and trampling on his affliction, and pouring on him revilings without end, his captains desiring to slay him, he utterly forbade them, saying, “Let him curse, that the Lord may look upon mine abasement, and that he may requite me good for this cursing this day.”370 And in the Psalms too in his chanting, he said, “Consider mine enemies, that they are multiplied, and they hate me with unjust hatred,” and “forgive all my sins.”371 And Lazarus again for the same cause enjoyed remission, having in this life suffered innumerable evils. They therefore who are wronged, are not wronged if they bear nobly all that they suffer, yea, rather they gain even more abundantly, whether they be smitten of God, or scourged by the devil. 543. “But what kind of sin had these children,” it may be said, “that they should do it away? for touching those who are of full age, and have been guilty of many negligences, one might with show of reason speak thus: but they who so underwent premature death, what sort of sins did they by their sufferings put away?” Didst thou not hear me say, that though there were no sins, there is a recompense of rewards hereafter for them that suffer ill here? Wherein then were the young children hurt in being slain for such a cause, and borne away speedily into that waveless harbor? “Because,” sayest thou, “they would in many instances have achieved, had they lived, many and great deeds of goodness.” Why, for this cause He lays up for them beforehand no small reward, the ending their lives for such a cause. Besides, if the children were to have been any great persons, He would not have suffered them to be snatched away beforehand. For if they that eventually will live in continual wickedness are endured by Him with so great long-sufferings, much more would He not have suffered these to be so taken off had He foreknown they would accomplish any great things. And these are the reasons we have to give; yet these are not all; but there are also others more mysterious than these, which He knoweth perfectly, who Himself ordereth these things. Let us then give up unto Him the more perfect understanding of this matter, and apply ourselves to what follows, and in the calamities of others let us learn to bear all things nobly. Yea, for it was no little scene of woe, which then befell Bethlehem, the children were snatched from their mother’s breast, and dragged unto this unjust slaughter. And if thou art yet faint-hearted, and not equal to controlling thyself in these things, learn the end of him who dared all this, and recover thyself a little. For very quickly was he overtaken by punishment for these things; and he paid the due penalty of such an abominable act, ending his life by a grievous death, and more pitiable than that which he now dared inflict;372suffering also countless additional ills, which ye may know of by perusing Josephus’ account of these events. But, lest we should make our discourse long, and interrupt its continuity, we have not thought it necessary to insert that account in what we are saying. 4. “Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet,373saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.”374 Thus having filled the hearer with horror by relating these things: the slaughter so violent and unjust, so extremely cruel and lawless; he comforts him again, by saying, Not from God’s wanting power to prevent it did all this take place, nor from any ignorance of His, but when He both knew it, and foretold it,375and that loudly by His prophet. Be not troubled then, neither despond, looking unto His unspeakable providence, which one may most clearly see, alike by what He works, and by what He permits. And this He intimated in another place also, when discoursing to His disciples. I mean where, having forewarned them of the judgment seats, and executions, and of the wars of the world, and of the battle that knows no truce, to uphold their spirit and to comfort them He saith, “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father which is in Heaven.”376 These things He said, signifying that nothing is done without His knowledge, but while He knows all, yet not in all doth He act. “Be not then troubled,” He saith, “neither be disturbed.” For if He know what ye suffer, and hath power to hinder it, it is quite clear that it is in His providence and care for you that He doth not hinder it. And this we ought to bear in mind in our own temptations also, and great will be the consolation we shall thence receive. But what, it may be said, hath Rachel to do with Bethlehem? For it saith, “Rachel weeping for her children.” And what hath Rama to do with Rachel? Rachel was the mother of Benjamin, and on his death, they buried her in the horse-course that was near this place.377 The tomb then being near, and the portion pertaining unto Benjamin her infant (for Rama was of the tribe of Benjamin), from the head of the tribe first, and next from the place of her sepulture, He naturally denominates her young children who were massacred.378 Then to show that the wound that befell her was incurable and cruel, He saith, “she would not be comforted because they are not.” Hence again we are taught this, which I mentioned before, never to be confounded when what is happening is contrary to the promise of God. Behold, for instance, when 55 He was come for the salvation of the people, or rather for the salvation of the world, of what kind were His beginnings. His mother, first, in flight; His birth-place is involved in irremediable calamities, and a murder is perpetrated of all murders the bitterest, and there is lamentation and great mourning, and wailings everywhere. But be not troubled; for He is wont ever to accomplish His own dispensations by their contraries, affording us from thence a very great demonstration of His power. Thus did He lead on His own disciples also, and prepared them to do all their duty, bringing about things by their contraries, that the marvel might be greater. They, at any rate, being scourged and persecuted, and suffering terrors without end, did in this way get the better of them that were beating and persecuting them. 5. “But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph saying, Arise, and take the young Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel.”379 He no more saith “fly,” but “go.” Seest thou again after the temptation refreshment? then after the refreshment danger again? in that he was freed indeed from his banishment, and came back again to his own country; and beheld the murderer of the children brought to the slaughter;380but when he hath set foot on his own country, he finds again a remnant of the former perils, the son of the tyrant living, and being king. But how did Archelaus reign over Judæa, when Pontius Pilate was governor? Herod’s death had recently taken place, and the kingdom had not yet been divided into many parts; but as he had only just ended his life, the son for a while kept possession of the kingdom “in the room of his father Herod;” his brother also bearing this name, which is the reason why the evangelist added, “in the room of his father Herod.” It may be said, however, “if he was afraid to settle in Judæa on account of Archelaus, he had cause to fear Galilee also on account of Herod.” I answer, By his changing the place, the whole matter was thenceforward thrown into shade; for the whole assault was upon “Bethlehem and the coasts thereof.” Therefore now that the slaughter had taken place, the youth Archelaus had no other thought, but that the whole was come to an end, and that amongst the many, He that was sought had been destroyed. And besides, his father having come to such an end of his life before his eyes, he became for the future more cautious about farther proceedings, and about urging on that course of iniquity. Joseph therefore comes to Nazareth, partly to avoid the danger, partly also delighting to abide in his native place. To give him the more courage, he receives also an oracle from the angel touching this matter. Luke, however, doth not say that he came there by Divine warning, but that when they had fulfilled all the purification, they returned to Nazareth.381What then may one say? That Luke is giving an account of the time before the going down to Egypt, when he saith these things. For He would not have brought them down thither before the purification, in order that nothing should be done contrary to the law, but he waited for her to be purified, and to go to Nazareth, and that then they should go down to Egypt. Then, after their return, He bids them go to Nazareth. But before this they were not warned of God to go thither, but yearning after their native place, they did so of their own accord. For since they had gone up for no other cause but on account of the taxing, and had not so much as a place where to stay, when they had fulfilled that for which they had come up, they went down to Nazareth.382 6. We see here the cause why the angel also, putting them at ease for the future, restores them to their home. And not even this simply, but he adds to it a prophecy, “That it might be fulfilled,” saith he, “which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.”383 And what manner of prophet said this? Be not curious, nor overbusy. For many of the prophetic writings have been lost; and this one may see from the history of the Chronicles.384 For being negligent, and continually falling into ungodliness, some they suffered to perish, others they themselves burnt up385and cut to pieces. The latter fact Jeremiah relates;386the former, he who composed the fourth book of Kings, saying, that after387a long time the book of Deuteronomy was hardly found, buried somewhere and lost. But if, when there was no barbarian there, they so betrayed their books, much 56 more when the barbarians had overrun them. For as to the fact, that the prophet had foretold it, the apostles themselves in many places call Him a Nazarene.388 “Was not this then,” one may say, “casting a shade over the prophecy touching Bethlehem?” By no means: rather this very fact was sure greatly to stir up men, and to awaken them to the search of what was said of Him. Thus, for example, Nathanael too enters on the inquiry concerning Him, saying, “Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?”389 For the place was of little esteem; or rather not that place only, but also the whole district of Galilee. Therefore the Pharisees said, “Search and look, for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.”390 Nevertheless, He is not ashamed to be named even from thence, signifying that He needs not ought of the things of men; and His disciples also He choses out of Galilee; everywhere cutting off the pretexts of them who are disposed to be remiss, and giving tokens that we have no need of outward things, if we practise virtue. For this cause He doth not choose for Himself so much as a house; for “the Son of Man,” saith He, “hath not where to lay His head;”391and when Herod is plotting against Him, He fleeth, and at His birth is laid in a manger, and abides in an inn, and takes a mother of low estate; teaching us to think no such thing a disgrace, and from the first outset trampling under foot the haughtiness of man, and bidding us give ourselves up to virtue only. 7. For why dost thou pride thyself on thy country, when I am commanding thee to be a stranger to the whole world? (so He speaks); when thou hast leave to become such as that all the universe shall not be worthy of thee? For these things are so utterly contemptible, that they are not thought worthy of any consideration even amongst the philosophers of the Greeks, but are called Externals, and occupy the lowest place. “But yet Paul,” one may say, “allows them, saying on this wise, ‘As touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake.’”392 But tell me, when, and of what things was he discoursing, and to whom? Why, to those of Gentile origin, who were puffing themselves up on their faith, and exalting themselves against the Jews, and so breaking them off the more: to quell the swelling pride of the one, and to win over the others, and thoroughly excite them to the same emulation. For when he is speaking of those noble and great men, hear how he saith, “They that say these things, show plainly that they seek a country; and truly if they had been mindful of that from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned: but now they desire another, a better country.”393 And again, “These all died in faith, not having obtained the promises, but having seen them afar off, and embraced them.”394 And John too said unto those that were coming to him, “Think not to say, We have Abraham to our father.”395 And Paul again, “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel; neither they, which are the children of the flesh, are they the children of God.”396 For what were the sons of Samuel advantaged, tell me, by their father’s nobleness, when they were not heirs of their father’s virtue? And what profit had Moses’ sons, not having emulated his perfection?397 Therefore neither did they inherit the dominion; but whilst they enrolled him as their father, the rule of the people passed away to another, to him who had become his son in the way of virtue. And what harm was it to Timothy, that he was of a Greek father? Or what on the other hand again was Noah’s son profited by the virtue of his father, when he became a slave instead of free? Seest thou, how little the nobleness of a father avails his children in the way of advocacy?398 For the wickedness of Ham’s disposition overcame the laws of nature, and cast him not only out of the nobility which he had in respect of his father, but also out of his free estate. And what of Esau? Was he not son of Isaac, and had he not his father to stand his friend? Yea, his father too endeavored and desired that he should partake of the blessings, and he himself for the sake of this did all that was commanded him. Nevertheless, because he was untoward,399none of these things profited him; but although he was by birth first, and had his father on his side doing everything for this object, yet not having God with him, he lost all. But why do I speak of men? The Jews were sons of God, and gained nothing by this their high birth. Now if a man, having become a son of God, but failing to show forth an excellency meet for this noble birth, is even punished the more abundantly; why 57 dost thou bring me forward the nobleness of ancestors remote or near? For not under the old covenant400only, but even under the new, one may find this rule to have held. For “as many as received Him,” it is said “to them gave He power to become the sons of God.”401 And yet many of these children Paul hath affirmed to be nothing profited by their father; “For if ye be circumcised,” saith he, “Christ shall profit you nothing.”402 And if Christ be no help to those who will not take heed to themselves, how shall a man stand up in their behalf? 8. Let us not therefore pride ourselves either on high birth, or on wealth, but rather despise them who are so minded: neither let us be dejected at poverty. But let us seek that wealth, which consists in good works; let us flee that poverty, which causes men to be in wickedness, by reason of which also that rich man was poor;403wherefore he had not at his command so much as a drop of water, and that, although he made much entreaty. Whereas, who can be so poor amongst us,404as to want water enough even for comfort? There is none such. For even they that are pining with extreme hunger, may have the comfort of a drop of water; and not of a drop only, but of refreshment too far more abundant. Not so that rich man, but he was poor even to this degree: and what was yet more grievous, he could not so much as soothe his poverty from any source. Why then do we gape after riches, since they bring us not into Heaven? For tell me, if any king among those upon earth had said, It is impossible for him that is rich to be distinguished at court, or to enjoy any honor; would ye not have thrown away every one his riches with contempt? So then, if they cast us out from such honor as is in the palaces below, they shall be worthy of all contempt: but, when the King of Heaven is day by day crying aloud and saying, “It is hard with them, to set foot on that sacred threshold;” shall we not give up all, and withdraw from our possessions, that with boldness we may enter into the kingdom? And of what consideration are we worthy, who are at great pains to encompass ourselves with the things that obstruct our way thither; and to hide them not only in chests, but even in the earth, when we might entrust them to the guard of the very Heavens? Since now surely thou art doing the same, as if any husbandman, having gotten wheat wherewith to sow a rich land, was to leave the land alone, and bury all the wheat in a pit, so as neither to enjoy it himself, nor for the wheat to come to ought, but decay and waste. But what is their common plea, when we accuse them of these things? It gives no little comfort, say they, to know that all is laid up for us in safety at home. Nay, rather not to know of its being laid up is a comfort. For even if thou art not afraid of famine, yet other more grievous things, on account of this store, must needs be a terror to thee: deaths, wars, plots laid against thee. And if a famine should ever befall us, the people again, constrained by the belly, takes weapon in hand against thy house. Or rather, in so doing, thou art first of all bringing famine into our cities, and next thou art forming for thine own house this gulf, more grievous than famine. For by stress of famine I know not any who have come to a speedy end; there being in fact many means in many quarters which may be devised to assuage that evil: but for possessions and riches, and the pursuits connected with them, I can show many to have come by their ruin, some in secret, some openly. And with many such instances the highways abound, with many the courts of law, and the market-places. But why speak I of the highways, the courts of law and the market-places? Why, the very sea thou mayest behold filled with their blood. For not over the land only, as it seems, hath this tyranny prevailed, but over the ocean also hath walked in festal procession with great excess. And one makes a voyage for gold, another, again, is stabbed for the same; and the same tyrannical power hath made one a merchant, the other a murderer. What then can be less trustworthy than Mammon, seeing that for his sake one travels, and ventures, and is slain? “But who,” it is said, “will pity a charmer that is bitten with a serpent?”405 For we ought, knowing its cruel tyranny, to flee that slavery, and destroy that grievous longing. “But how,” saith one, “is this possible?” By introducing another longing, the longing for Heaven. Since he that desires the kingdom will laugh covetousness to scorn; he that is become Christ’s slave is no slave of mammon, but rather his lord; for him that flieth from him, he is wont to follow, and to fly from him that pursues. He honors not so much his pursuer as his despiser; no one doth he so laugh to scorn, as them that desire him; nor 58 doth he only laugh them to scorn, but wraps round them also innumerable bonds. Be it ours then, however late, to loose these grievous chains. Why bring thy reasonable soul into bondage to brute matter, to the mother of those untold evils? But, oh the absurdity! that while we are warring against it in words, it makes war with us by deeds, and leads and carries us everywhere about, insulting us as purchased with money, and meet for the lash; and what can be more disgraceful and dishonorable than this? Again: if we do not get the better of senseless forms of matter, how shall we have the advantage of the incorporeal powers? If we despise not vile earth and abject stones, how shall we bring into subjection the principalities and authorities? How shall we practise temperance? I mean, if silver dazzle and overpower us, when shall we be able to hurry by a fair face? For, in fact, some are so sold under this tyranny, as be moved somehow even at the mere show of the gold, and in playfulness to say, that the very eyes are the better for a gold coin coming in sight. But make not such jests, whoever thou art;406for nothing so injures the eyes, both those of the body and those of the soul, as the lust of these things. For instance; it was this grievous longing that put out the lamps of those virgins, and cast them out of the bride chamber. This sight, which (as thou saidst) “doeth good to the eyes,” suffered not the wretched Judas to hearken unto the Lord’s voice, but led him even to the halter, made him burst asunder in the midst; and, after all that, conducted him on to hell. What then can be more lawless than this? what more horrible? I do not mean the substance of riches, but the unseasonable and frantic desire of them? Why, it even drops human gore, and looks murder, and is fiercer than any wild beast, tearing in pieces them that fall in its way, and what is much worse, it suffers them not even to have any sense of being so mangled. For reason would that those who are so treated should stretch forth their hand to them that pass by, and call them to their assistance, but these are even thankful for such rendings of their flesh, than which what can be more wretched? Let us then, bearing in mind all these things, flee the incurable disease; let us heal the wounds it hath made, and withdraw ourselves from such a pest: in order that both here we may live a secure and untroubled life, and attain to the future treasure; unto which God grant that we may all attain,407by the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ, with whom unto the Father together with the Holy Ghost be glory, might, honor, now and ever, and world without end. Amen NPNF1-10. St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew - Christian Classics Ethereal Library شفتها ياعزيزي ؟؟!!! البس نظارة أو غير النظارة القديمة اذا كنت بتلبس نظارة فعلا يتبع ان شاااااااااء الله ...

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07-18-2013, 07:12 PM

المشاركة رقم: 46

المعلومات الكاتب: ابو محمد اللقب: عضو فعال الصــورة الشخصية البيانات التسجيل: Jun 2013 العضوية: 39407 المشاركات: 255 [+] بمعدل : 0.60 يوميا المخالفات : 0 التحذيرات : 0 اخر زياره : [+] معدل التقييم: 2 نقاط التقييم: 10 معلومآت عني الجنس: دولتي: الوظيفة: سيرتي الذاتيـة: الحالة الإجتماعية: اتصل بي او راسلني الـتوآجد

كاتب الموضوع : ابو محمد المنتدى : حوار دينى رد: كيف نأمن على الكتاب المقدس ؟ Share on facebook Share on twitter Share on email Share on print More Sharing Services الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على أشرف خلق الله .. وبعد أكمل الرد بحول الله ومنه وفضله كنت قد كتبت لك في مشاركة سابقة كلام يوستينوس الشهيد في حواره مع تريفو اليهودي >> الفصل 72 Trypho: We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled. Chapter 72. Passages have been removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah Justin: I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: 'And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.' And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: 'I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.' Jeremiah 11:19 And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: 'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.' وخد رابط عشان متزعلش CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 69-88 (Justin Martyr) ومش عاجبك الرابط خد رابط آخر ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library خلي بالك الكلام تحت عنوان Chapter LXXII.—Passages have been removed by the Jews from Esdras فطلبت المصدر جبت المصدر .. قلت ان ده مجرد حوار عادي .. قلنا مش حوار عادي ده بيثبت فيه ان فيه فقرات محذوفة من كتابك المقدس .. والآن تقول اقتباس عندنا مفيش حد معصوم من الخطاء وقد سبق وردينا على هذا الكلام يعني كمان طلعت القديس يوستينوس خاطئ المشكلة ان كتابك هو اللي هيحكم عليه طبقا لكلامك سفر الرؤيا 22: 18 لأَنِّي أَشْهَدُ لِكُلِّ مَنْ يَسْمَعُ أَقْوَالَ نُبُوَّةِ هذَا الْكِتَابِ: إِنْ كَانَ أَحَدٌ يَزِيدُ عَلَى هذَا، يَزِيدُ اللهُ عَلَيْهِ الضَّرَبَاتِ الْمَكْتُوبَةَ فِي هذَا الْكِتَابِ. 19 وَإِنْ كَانَ أَحَدٌ يَحْذِفُ مِنْ أَقْوَالِ كِتَابِ هذِهِ النُّبُوَّةِ، يَحْذِفُ اللهُ نَصِيبَهُ مِنْ سِفْرِ الْحَيَاةِ، وَمِنَ الْمَدِينَةِ الْمُقَدَّسَةِ، وَمِنَ الْمَكْتُوبِ فِي هذَا الْكِتَابِ. يعني يوستينوس وغيره من الآباء زي اكلمندس السكندري ويوسابيوس القيصري واوريجانوس وايرناؤس واثناسيوس الرسولي وهيبوليتس وميليتو وجيروم ودايداموس الضرير وووو السستة كتيرة .. راحوا في حيص بيص طبقا لهذا النص حيث أنهم زادوا في كتابك ماليس منه يعني مثلا يوسابيوس القيصري ده كان اسقف يعني وراه شعب الكنيسة يعني شعب الكنيسة اللي وراه في حيص بيص ايضا. ويقول العلامة أوريجانوس New Testament tools and studies - Bruce Metzger - pg 88 "لقد أصبحت الاختلافات بين المخطوطات عظيمة، إما بسبب إهمال بعض النسـّاخ أو بسبب التهور الأحمق للبعض الآخر؛ فهل كانوا يهملون مراجعة ما نسخوه،أم، بينما يراجعونه،يقومون بالحذف والإضافة على هواهم" قلت انت اقتباس اقتباس: ياريت قبل ماتستشهد باقول احد تعرف موقف الكنيسه منه ايه فهل تعرف موقف الكنيسه من اوريجانوس؟؟؟ طيب تعالى انا وانت نشوف القمص عبد المسيح بسيط يقول عنه علامة ويستشهد بكلامه انظر الرابط ww.father-bassit.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10936 ويقول عنه أيضا في كتاب نظرة شاملة لعلم الباترولوجي, كنيسة مار جرجس باسبورتنج - صــ71. "[أمير مُفسِّري الكتاب المقدس، أمير الفلسفة المسيحية،معلم الأساقفة، لا يوجد عقل بشرى يستطيع أن يستوعب كل ما كتبه (...) عندما سمع بشهرته البابا ديمتريوس (البطريرك الثاني عشر على كرسي مار مرقس) عيَّنه عميداً لمدرسة الإسكندرية.]" في انتظار تعليقك على كلام العلامة اوريجانوس الذي اورده بروس متزجر New Testament tools and studies - Bruce Metzger - pg 88 انتظر الاجابة على هذا الكلام ايضا فأنا فعلت زي ابوك بسيط .. اعتبرت الرجل علامة .. وزي مثلا أبوك القمص اثناسيوس فهمي جورج في كتابه كتاب الاستشهاد في فكر الآباء بيقول على اوريجانوس علامة ... رد بقى يامشرف على كلام اوريجانوس ويقول العلامة أوريجانوس New Testament tools and studies - Bruce Metzger - pg 88 "لقد أصبحت الاختلافات بين المخطوطات عظيمة، إما بسبب إهمال بعض النسـّاخ أو بسبب التهور الأحمق للبعض الآخر؛ فهل كانوا يهملون مراجعة ما نسخوه،أم، بينما يراجعونه،يقومون بالحذف والإضافة على هواهم" وليس اوريجانوس بمفرده خد عندك جيروم The text of the New Testament: its transmission, corruption, and ... - صفحة 195 للعلامة بروس متزجر يقول: "Jerome complained of the copyists who 'write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt torectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own'" فعلى الناسخ أن يكت ما يجده لا ما يعتقده ولا بالمعنى الذي يفهمه ولا ايه يااستاذ محاسن اقتباس هل ترى الكلام جيدآ؟؟؟ هناك فرق بين البعض قد حاولوا افساد كتابات الرب وبين البعض قد افسدوا كتابات الرب فمش معنى المحاول انهم قد نجحوا فى ذلك ومش معنى المحاولة أنهم فشلوا :) والمخطوطات تكذب الغطاس .. انظر إلى الموضوع جيدا وستعرف أنهم نجحوا في ذلك. اقتباس وهل انت اعلم من دكتور هولى بايبل ؟؟؟؟ ارجع للرابط مره اخرى فهو يثبت لك اصاله النص ياسيدي هو انا بحاورك انت ولا بحاور هولي بايبل انا بكلمك بكلام علماء وانت بتقولي هولي بايبل .. خاطب عقول القراء الكرام لو مش قادر تكمل هات هولي بايبل هنا وخليه يكمل معايا مفيش مشاكل خالص وزي ما قلت لك : لو أتيت بعالم نقد نصي واحد يقول بعدم وقوع التحريف في نص رسالة يوحنا الأولى 7:5 سأعتذر فورا وانسحب من الموضوع. اقتباس ياريت تكتبلى ما هى النصوص التى قام بتصحيحها لوسيان الانطاكى وبالدليل اه حضرتك ممكن تاخد بعضك وتروح تسأل فيليب كومفرت بنفسه .. ههههههههههه ياعزيزي اقرأ وتعلم الله يصلح حالك ويهديك سمعت عن حاجة اسمها النص اللوسياني ؟!!!! متعرفش يامشرف الحوار المتمدن أن لوسيان الانطاكي هو من انتج ما يسمى بالنص البيزنطي؟!!!! بالطبيعي أن يقوم بتصحيحات وتغييرات حينئذ يامشرف الحوار المتمدن خد ياعزيزي موقع به الاختلافات بين النص البيزنطي وغيره Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt وانظر لهذا الموقع ايضا به بعض الامثلة على ما قام لوسيان الانطاكي به 20. Harmonizing | Bible differences ياريت بلاش نتكلم في اساسيات تاني الله يكرمك اقتباس الحمد لله انك قولت الحقيقه انه مهرطق وعمل انجيل لوحده فين انجيل لوحده دي ... ركز ياعزيزي الله يخليك كومفرت يقول والبعض الآخر كان يبدل في النص لكي يؤكد وجهة نظره المذهبية .. ومثال على ذلك .. ماركيون المهرطق .. ويقول ايضا والبعض الآخر أمثال تاتيان .. قام بعمل إنجيل واحد مستمد من الأناجيل الأربعة وبالتالي حذف أي تناقض موجود بين الأناجيل .. العجيب انك مطلبتش امثلة قام بها تاتيان ههههههههه اقرأ ياعزيزي الكلام جيدا وايضا قال كومفرت بعض العلماء ومنهم على سبيل المثال بارت إيرمان يرون أن النص تم تنقيحه أثناء نقله في العصور القديمة بواسطة الأرثودكس أكثر من الهراطقة طبعا ونقلنا كلام دانيال والاس الذي أكد تغيير الارثوذكس للآلاف من النصوص يبقى اللي كان بيغير في النصوص ( نساخ مسيحيون وغير مسيحيون - هراطقة - آباء وقديسون ) فالتحريف كما قلت واعيد في المخطوطات امر مسلم به يقول العلامة متزجر في كتاب The Text Of The New Testament Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration - Pg 265: "إن تقدير عدد التغييرات المتعمدة التى حدثت لأهداف مذهبية صعب .إريناؤس وإكلمندس السكندرى وترتليان ويوسابيوس القيصرى والكثير من اباء الكنيسة اتهموا الهراطقة بتحريف المخطوطات لتدعيم وجهات نظرهم الخاصة . فى منتصف القرن الثانى، قام ماركيون (المهرطق) بحذف كل الاشارات للخلفيةة اليهودية عن يسوع من نسخه لإنجيل لوقا ....وحتى بين المسيحيين الأرثوذكس ، فكل طائفة غالبا ما كانت تتهم الأخرى بتغيير نصوص المخطوطات " يعني الآباء بيشتكوا من التحريف اللي بيحصل في المخطوطات والمشرف العزيز يقول لا لا مفيش أي تحريف ده كل اللي موجود اختلافات هجائية بس .. الله المستعان اقتباس تذكر لك مشاركتان من الان وحتى لا تعترض على ذلك فقد دعانى الاخ كيموا لكى ارى منتداكم البشاره ووجد فيه انكم بتحددو للموضوع ثلاث مشاركات فقط وهذا حدث مع الاخ كيموا شخصيا لذلك دعونا نعاملكم بالمثل الكلام ده محصلش ياعزيزي وتعالى اتأكد بنفسك انتهى تحياتي

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